When White-Collar Turns Red, Part Two

Interviewing a psychopath is a battle of wits. But armed with a non-traditional strategy, a trained CFE can outmaneuver even the cleverest criminal.

This article concludes a two-part series devoted to the study of a classification of lawbreaker called red-collar criminals. The first article in the May/June 2007 described a sub-group of psychopathic white-collar criminals who are capable of vicious and brutal violence against individuals whom they believe have detected their fraud crimes. The article underscored the importance of including CFEs as part of a homicide investigation team especially in uncovering a murder motivated by fraud and in shaping the interviewing process.

Red-collar criminals are not as smart as they think they are. They have plenty of weaknesses that fraud examiners can exploit when called in to help investigate their crimes. We set out in our study to determine whether red-collar criminals were capable of committing violence against their victims without exposing both their white-collar and violent crimes.

[As part of the study, co-author Frank Perri cataloged the details of 15 homicide cases involving fraud. See Perri’s Red-Collar Crime Matrix, which originally appeared in part one of this article in the May/June 2007 issue. The matrix presents the pattern and characteristics of white-collar criminals who murdered to hide their fraud crimes and thus became red-collar criminals.]

The CFE must realize that just knowing the characteristics of a psychopath isn’t enough to guarantee identification of a psychopath; it’s not uncommon for psychopaths to be able to fool well-trained interviewers. CFEs must be aware of the interview techniques to use with red-collar criminals as compared to those they use with non-violent, white-collar criminals. By understanding the unique behavioral traits of a red-collar criminal, the CFE can plan an effective interview. We offer suggestions to accomplish this by discussing some of the traits and how interviewers can assess if they are in fact in the presence of a true psychopath.

THE PSYCHOPATHIC PROFILE 

White-collar criminals thrive on being able to avoid detection. Those in the red-collar sub-group, particularly, believe they’re extremely clever. However, their distorted self-image of omnipotence is the weakness that a CFE can use against them during an interview.

We’ve used actual interviews from the matrix to demonstrate techniques that proved productive and those that should be avoided. For example, the videotaped interview of red-collar criminal Christopher Porco (see sidebar on page 31) shows what can go wrong when the interviewer doesn’t understand this type of criminal, and it supports our position that CFEs should be included on a homicide investigation team especially when there’s evidence that fraud pre-dated the murder. The videotape illustrates an interview strategy that failed because the interviewer didn’t investigate the suspect’s fraudulent behavior and didn’t correctly interpret the suspect’s psychological mind-set when confronting the killer.

EXPLOIT THE PSYCHOPATHIC CHARACTER 

What’s remarkable is how the evidence trail in the red-collar cases reflects the psychopathic nature of red-collar criminals. In many of the homicides, the killer left behind evidence such as fingerprints, DNA, incriminating statements, incriminating computer evidence, eyewitness accounts, and murder plans. Their egos also produced an overconfident view of their ability to avoid detection by not bothering to conceal incriminating evidence.

For example, in the Petrick murder case, the prosecution uncovered his fraud and evidence that exposed his intentions. The defendant’s computer offered up records that he had searched the Internet under “22 ways to kill a man with your bare hands,” “neck,” “snap,” “break” and “rigor mortis.” Furthermore, because Petrick’s murdered wife was found floating in a lake, the prosecution looked further and uncovered additional computer searches related to the water level of the lake. Interestingly, Petrick believed he was competent enough to represent himself at trial without counsel. The desire to represent oneself is a major sign of psychopathology because it relates to the trait of egocentricity and grandiosity.

Impulsiveness is another attribute of psychopaths. Red-collar criminals have poor impulsive controls, which hinders their abilities to foresee the consequences of their behavior. The red-collar criminals’ inability to think through a plan that would take into account the potential risks, such as being caught, is also a hallmark of their behavior. There’s a behavioral pattern that unfolds revealing how these criminals leave behind a tremendous amount of evidence that can be used against them. It’s imperative in cases in which the evidence is circumstantial to conduct an effective interview – one that could make the difference between a guilty verdict and a red-collar criminal escaping justice.

The Hare Psychopathic Checklist is an essential tool for CFEs in the investigations of white- and red-collar crimes. The checklist and detailed explanation of psychopathic traits can be found in Robert Hare’s book, “Without Conscience.” Fraud examiners who employ Hare’s findings can focus not only on the tangible aspects of a murder investigation but also on the intangible qualities of psychopathic behavior that might surface during an interview but that require a trained eye to uncover. A CFE’s understanding of the psychopathic traits will help when deciding the interviewing strategies to use.

USE THE PSYCHOPATHIC GRID TO INTERVIEW 

By being familiar with the psychopath’s traits, a CFE can observe a suspect’s behavior, adjust the interaction strategy with the suspect to encourage dialogue, skillfully craft questions, and evaluate answers for further follow-up questions. You must be cognizant of the fact that the red-collar criminal is investing mental energy in understanding what you represent. As veteran FBI profiler Gregg McCrary stated, “I think psychopaths are the best natural psychologist out there. ... They read vulnerabilities, they read people and they can exploit those things fairly well.” (From “Inside the Mind of Psychopaths,” CNN, May 4, 2005.)

Your ability to elicit information increases when you’re seen as unthreatening to the red-collar criminal. Here are traits to assess in an interview when determining whether your are in the presence of a psychopath. (According to Dr. Martha Stout, psychologist and instructor at Harvard Medical School’s Department of Psychiatry, it’s crucial to understand that a psychopath doesn’t have to fit all the traits. Stout advises that if three or more of the listed traits surface, there’s a possibility that you’re dealing with a psychopath. Of course, the more traits that appear to surface the higher the probability the suspect is a psychopath.)

Superficial charm – Watch the suspect’s demeanor. The criminal might be friendly and straightforward yet offer very little useful information. He or she may appear to be answering a question when in fact nothing is being revealed. He or she may appear at ease and show few, if any, signs of anxiety, embarrassment, or discomfort.

Lack of remorse – Look for evidence of past remorse in situations that might not be connected to the current crime. Ask questions about past relationships. Assess whether there’s any capacity for remorse and how others have been affected by his behavior and whether it means anything to him. The interviewer must try to determine if the suspect is simply stating what should be said and whether his actions back up his statements.

Pathological lying – Look for the suspect’s continuing lying even after confronted with the truth. Interviewers will find it remarkable that even after being caught in a lie, suspects are seldom embarrassed. They simply go on to another lie or attempt to make a lie consistent with the truth.

Manipulative – Search for signs of fraudulent behavior, both financial and non-financial. In addition, look for signs of taking advantage of family members and organizations, impersonations and identity theft. Research if the suspect has a criminal record.

Irresponsibility – Determine if the suspect has any sense of duty or loyalty to family and friends, has behavior that puts others at risk, fails to keep promises and obligations, shuns responsibility for personal actions, blames others or the system for misfortunes, and feeds on others to support his individual needs.

Grandiosity – Explore the suspect’s self-image. Look for an inflated ego, a cocky attitude, a self-assured demeanor, and exaggerated regard for his or her abilities.

Impulsivity – Ask the individual what thoughts he or she has before acting. Ask for a description of the circumstances leading up to the offense. Attempt to elicit views on planning and spontaneity. Determine if the individual is impulsive. This trait – the inability to foresee the consequences of an act – is one of the reasons that red-collar criminals aren’t apt to successfully conceal their crimes.

We haven’t discussed all of the traits here such as the need for stimulation, shallowness, callousness, poor behavioral controls, early behavioral problems, and juvenile delinquency. An interviewer might not have the time to explore all of these traits.

THE POWER OF SELF DELUSION 

Among the most devastating pieces of evidence that defendants can offer about themselves are statements they make to law enforcement or third parties. Therefore, obtaining statements is crucial because they might reveal motives, state of mind, facts inconsistent with the physical evidence, and implausibility. In the majority of the American murders in the matrix, the defendants gave statements that were incriminating, implausible, and inconsistent, or a combination of these. Although a strength of the psychopath is the ability to talk and perpetrate his manipulative behavior on the prey, it’s also a weakness when it comes to the investigative stage of the murder.

Red-collar criminals believe they’re capable of creating scenarios that others will accept. The fact that they’re talking to a trained investigator doesn’t diminish their deceitful ways and, in fact, they might enjoy having the chance to charm the interviewer. However, red-collar criminals begin to lose their ability to avoid detection when the evidence begins to point to them as the murderer.

The knowledge that red-collar criminals won’t be truthful isn’t as important as getting these chameleons to talk. By getting them to open up, interviewers might uncover a trail of statements that makes no sense and produces a powerful image of deception and lack of credibility at trial. However, CFEs must be aware that interviewing the psychopath might prove challenging if the interview isn’t planned with the goal of eliciting inconsistent, implausible information rather than getting the suspect to speak the truth.

As one interviewing expert, Don Rabon, said, “When dealing with the pathological interviewee, give him the facts and details that will refute his assertions but don’t expect him to acquiesce or recant previous statements.” He further said, “Confronting the pathological person with facts and details that are contrary to his assertions is like nailing Jell-o to a wall.” Even if the suspect sees that the evidence contradicts his assertions, don’t expect him to display anxiety or emotional discomfort. Such outward displays of emotion aren’t characteristic of psychopaths challenged with incriminating evidence.

BREAKING WITH TRADITION 

When it comes to interviewing psychopaths, traditional approaches – such as using emotions to get suspects to give truthful information – must be radically modified to overcome their behavioral aspects. We advise interviewers, even when they aren’t sure, to begin the interview as if the suspect were a psychopath. An interviewer starting with an approach appropriate for a non-psychopath might not be able to switch strategies midway through an interview. Furthermore, because a traditional interview with a non-psychopath might involve power plays, a psychopath will see through such ploys and probably will refuse to speak to you.

This is why it’s important for CFEs to assess if they’re talking to psychopaths. The psychopath is intensely evaluating your every move and word. He’s a true human predator with hunter-like instincts even though he doesn’t openly exhibit it. It’s easier to switch from a psychopathic interview strategy to a traditional approach than vice-versa. This is why it’s important for the interviewer to become familiar with the outlined traits; there might not be a second chance to elicit incriminating statements.

You can use several techniques. Avoid confronting a psychopath with the aggressive style used in the Porco case. You’re more apt to gain valuable information if you present yourself as a subdued individual. The red-collar criminal is more willing to want to impress you with his knowledge if you let him believe he’s in charge. Present the incriminating evidence and let the red-collar criminal attempt to lie it away. In the Porco case, the investigator gained little information from the brow-beating approach.

Collect as many inconsistent and implausible facts as possible. It will be almost impossible to get the psychopath to be honest. Presenting incriminating evidence to the red-collar criminal doesn’t increase the probability of extracting a confession. If the psychopath does show emotions, they are probably fake and learned from observing others. Don’t alter your line of questioning because you believe the suspect is about to confess; he might be using this strategy to test you and to see how clever you are. Don’t appeal for sympathy, remorse, regret, or social obligations. The interview has to be based on a non-emotional format and the dialogue must center on facts and specific evidence.

Don’t make threats you can’t carry out. For example, if you say there’s evidence that points to his guilt and you don’t produce it when asked, you’ll have lost any chance of getting useful information. The suspect will view you as weak and open to manipulation. Attempting to play mind games will backfire. These suspects are skilled at reading others and in what they are attempting to accomplish.

Consider your safety when interviewing these suspects. Remember they’re not typical non-violent white-collar criminals. On the contrary, they’re incredibly brutal and won’t hesitate to silence an individual they view as a threat. They view violence as a solution. Therefore, consider where the interview will take place (home, office, in public, etc.) and the time of day. It’s important that others know when and where you’ll be interviewing the red-collar criminal.

MEASURE OF SUCCESS 

Many individuals, especially those in law enforcement, believe it’s imperative to get the confessions or the interviews are failures. However, an interview of a red-collar criminal that doesn’t yield a confession can still be successful. Inconsistent and implausible responses from the red-collar criminal are devastating when disclosed in court.

Imagine if the Porco jury was allowed to view six hours of illogical, inconsistent, and implausible testimony from the defendant, who showed no remorse or feelings for what happened to his father. Would the fact that he didn't confess really make a difference to a jury? Remember, in court the red-collar criminal isn’t in a position to avoid those he believes he can't manipulate.

The data derived from this study show that although red-collar criminals are psychopathic, they have weaknesses that can be exploited during the interviewing process. A red-collar criminal’s incompetence shows in the amount of evidence he creates, which can ultimately be used against him in a court of law. By understanding his chameleon-like qualities and his attempt to conceal the evidence trail he left behind, the skilled interviewer actually can expose his white-collar crimes, the motives for the murder(s), and his participation in the murder.

Frank S. Perri, J.D., MBA, CFE, CPA, has worked as a trial attorney for more than 10 years in the areas of white-collar crimes, homicide, and narcotics. 

Terrance G. Lichtenwald, Ph.D., a licensed practicing clinical psychologist, has spent 18 years completing forensic, behavioral, psychological, and security evaluations as well as threat assessments. 

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